People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast

Can artificial intelligence learn to read poker tells and figure out when someone is bluffing? AI engineer Luke Geel (geelai.net) created software designed to do just that, and his work was featured this year on the TV coverage of the World Series of Poker Main Event. I'm the author of some poker tells books (readingpokertells.com), and when I first heard about this program, I wondered: what exactly is his program doing? And how well does it work? In this episode, Luke explains how he built and structured his program. We discuss what his software can actually do, and why teaching machines to read behavior in poker is much harder than it might seem. Along the way, we explore some challenges of machine learning, including how AI finds patterns, why understanding context and personal variation matters, and how researchers can distinguish meaningful behavioral signals from noise. We also talk about Luke's newer work using AI to analyze sales conversations, with the goal of identifying subtle clues about people's intentions and discovering which communication strategies are most persuasive. This is a talk about poker, AI, psychology, and the possibilities and limitations of using machines to understand what people are thinking and feeling.

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Can trying to read people's body language make investigators worse at finding the truth? Veteran interrogator and trainer Stan B. Walters, known as “the Lie Guy” (thelieguy.com) and author of “Principles of Kinesic Interview and Interrogation,” explains why he moved away from many of the nonverbal behavior ideas he once taught—and why he now focuses on listening to what people say. We discuss his and others’ research on telling lies from truth in real criminal interrogations, why bad ideas about nonverbal behavior and aggressive interviewing tactics persist in police training, and how investigators can accidentally feed suspects information that “contaminates” the interview and makes their job harder. Stan shares stories of an interview that unexpectedly uncovered a serial killer and a murder-attempt survivor whose important detail was missed because nobody asked the right questions. We explore what actually matters when listening to people: looking for gaps in people’s stories, thinking about how logical and verifiable their stories are, and more.

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How does someone make a living playing slot machines—and why would casinos let them? After joining professional gambler Chris Huang on a casino trip in Atlantic City, I talk with him about the unusual career of casino “advantage play” and how pro slot machine players capture the money left behind by other, less knowledgeable players. We explore why manufacturers create beatable machines, the psychological tricks that machine makers use to attract players, and the unethical actions some slot machine pros take to manipulate players into leaving profitable seats. Chris explains the risks pro slot machine players can encounter, how seemingly promising opportunities can turn into expensive mistakes, why a little knowledge can be dangerous, and what happens when you run out of cash in the middle of a long-term play. We also discuss online gambling “gurus” selling dubious claims of expertise, the secrecy and competition among slot professionals, and the appeal—and pressures—of making a living this way. Learn more about Chris at youtube.com/@gamblingeducationwithchris.

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A talk with Andrew Thompson, a New York City-area private investigator and a researcher of criminal behavior and interrogation techniques. Andrew shares how he gets people talking while lacking the authority and command of a police badge, and what studying FBI crime cases and interrogations taught him about linguistic clues to deception in people’s stories. We also discuss his research into criminal personality categories and how that may be tied to linguistic patterns. We discuss how mistaking signs of anxiety for guilt or deception can send investigators down very wrong paths; and how aggressive questioning can contribute to false confessions and other negative outcomes. We discuss why appearing uninterested in an important revelation from someone can sometimes encourage them to reveal more, and other tips on influencing and manipulating people in order to achieve investigative results. And Andrew discusses how AI advances have affected the investigative industry.

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On this podcast I sometimes explore the “behavior expert” industry. One thing I'm curious about is the value people say that they’ve received from “behavior expert” trainings and certifications. This is a talk with Gallia Winkler, a psychological coach and a behavioral student of Joe Navarro’s; she’s been certified in his Body Language Expert Program. I ask her about what drives her interest in nonverbal behavior, what value she believes she’s gotten from Navarro's teachings, and how those teachings have helped her in her personal and professional life.

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