The Michael Shermer Show

America's criminal justice debate usually gets reduced to two options: abolish the system or lock everyone up forever. Economist Jennifer Doleac thinks the data point somewhere else entirely.
In this episode, Michael Shermer speaks with Doleac about what rigorous research can tell us about crime, punishment, deterrence, prison reform, and public safety.
Doleac argues that America has built much of its criminal justice system backwards: too little certainty of being caught, too much faith in long prison sentences, and not enough testing of what actually works.
Jennifer Doleac is the Executive Vice President of Criminal Justice at Arnold Ventures, a philanthropy focused on evidence-based policy. Before that, she spent over a decade as an economics professor, conducting academic research. She is a leading expert on the economics of crime and discrimination, and a vocal proponent of using rigorous research to inform policy. She frequently writes for outlets including The Washington Post, TIME, and Bloomberg Opinion, and she hosts the Probable Causation podcast on law, economics, and crime. Doleac holds a PhD in Economics from Stanford University. Her new book is The Science of Second Chances: A Revolution in Criminal Justice.

Gad Saad returns to discuss his new book Suicidal Empathy: Dying to Be Kind, a provocative argument that empathy is not a moral trump card. Empathy can illuminate suffering, but it can also distort judgment when it is treated as an unquestionable virtue, applied selectively, or insulated from consequences.
Saad's central claim is that many Western institutions have learned to treat compassion as a substitute for judgment. In practice, he argues, this can mean extending sympathy toward the wrong targets (for example, criminals over victims), excusing destructive behavior, rewarding ideological conformity over truth, or denying uncomfortable facts in the name of kindness. The result is a moral framework that feels humane in the moment but can produce outcomes that are unfair, irrational, or even dangerous.
The conversation covers cultural relativism, islamism, suicide cults, kamikaze pilots, immigration and foreign aid, forbidden knowledge, and why some ideas spread and take hold while others fade away.
Gad Saad is a professor and an evolutionary behavioral scientist. He has authored numerous scientific papers and pioneered the use of evolutionary psychology in marketing and consumer behavior. In addition to his scientific work, he often writes and speaks about idea pathogens that are destroying logic, science, reason, and common sense. He is the host of The Saad Truth podcast. His new book is Suicidal Empathy: Dying to Be Kind.

We like to think the future can be figured out if we just gather enough information. Pick the right expert, read the right forecast, find the right framework, and the fog will lift.
Simone Stolzoff argues that this impulse often works against us. In his new book How to Not Know, he makes the case for getting better at uncertainty—not as a slogan, and not as an excuse to believe nothing, but as a practical skill: knowing when to act without perfect information, when to distrust easy answers, when to revise your beliefs, and when uncertainty might point toward something worth discovering.
The conversation covers why people cling to conspiracy theories, what cults offer that ordinary life does not, why experts are so bad at predicting the future, how the replication crisis changed psychology, what relationships teach us about irreversible choices, and why the unknown is not only frightening, but also where possibility begins.
Simone Stolzoff is a San Francisco–based journalist and author. His work has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, and on the TED stage. He is a graduate of Stanford University and the University of Pennsylvania. His debut book, The Good Enough Job, has been translated into more than a dozen languages. His new book is How to Not Know: The Value of Uncertainty in a World That Demands Answers.

Neil deGrasse Tyson returns to The Michael Shermer Show to talk UFOs, aliens, government files, eyewitness testimony, and his new book Take Me to Your Leader: Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter.
The conversation moves from the limits of eyewitness testimony to why secret military files are not evidence of hidden alien bodies, why high-G turns would turn biological pilots into "a pile of goo," why the universe almost certainly contains life elsewhere, and why the real question is not whether aliens exist—but whether anyone has actually produced one.
Neil deGrasse Tyson is an astrophysicist and the director of the Hayden Planetarium at the American Museum of Natural History, where he has served since 1996. Dr. Tyson is also the host and cofounder of the Emmy-nominated popular podcast StarTalk and its spinoff StarTalk Sports Edition, which combine science, humor, and pop culture. He is a recipient of twenty-three honorary doctorates, the Public Welfare Medal from the National Academy of Sciences, and the Distinguished Public Service Medal from NASA. Asteroid 13123 Tyson is named in his honor. His new book is Take Me to Your Leader: Perspectives on Your First Alien Encounter.

Journalist and author Ashley Rindsberg returns to The Michael Shermer Show for a wide-ranging conversation about the new media world: influencers with audiences larger than cable networks, conspiracy theories built for engagement, and the collapse of trust that followed COVID, censorship, and years of institutional overreach.
Ashley Rindsberg is an investigative journalist and author focused on digital information platforms. He is the founder and editor of NPOV, which looks at how knowledge platforms like Wikipedia are used to distort information and seed damaging narratives online. He is the author of The Gray Lady Winked, an expose on The New York Times, and serves as Editor-at-Large at Pirate Wires, a leading tech, politics, and culture outlet.