In this episode of Deeply Intents, I chat with Jim Chang (0xJim), product guru from LI.FI. We begin the episode by answering the question, why do we need interop? Next we dive into the nuances of intent bridges, solvers, order flow auctions, MEV, and filler vaults. Thereafter, Jim explains the necessity of and philosophy behind Ethereum's Open Intents Framework (OIF). Directly after, we break down how the Ethereum Interop Layer (EIL), the OIF, and Ethereum governance interact. Later we discuss learnings from building products in 2025, including how to build distribution from zero and whether building a personal brand on Twitter is helpful towards these ends. We conclude by discussing Jim's passion for thrift shopping.Timestamps(00:00) - Building crypto products(04:29) - Working with Alt VMs(07:26) - Why do we need interop?(14:12) - Intents(20:16) - Getting pedantic about intents(26:14) - Intent value chain(30:33) - Intent verification(33:47) - Orderflow auctions(40:00) - Cross-chain MEV(45:00) - Solvers are not market makers(47:56) - Filler vaults(52:27) - Popular routes(57:25) - Open Intents Framework(1:04:12) - OIF flywheel(1:07:34) - Ethereum upgrades that support interop(1:10:30) - EIL, OIF, and Ethereum governance(1:14:17) - Product learnings in 2025(1:19:15) - Distribution 0-1(1:24:05) - Twitter(1:28:00) - Thrift shopping
DisclaimerNothing in this episode should be interpreted as financial, technical, or legal advice. The host does contract work for Heliax, a public goods laboratory, focusing on Anoma.
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1:35:08
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1:35:08
Securing the Future of Ethereum Core Development - Trent Van Epps
In this episode of Deeply Intents, I chat with Trent Van Epps from the Ethereum Foundation. In particular, we discuss Trent's work as an organizer of Protocol Guild. We begin by discussing what Protocol Guild is, why projects care, and membership. Next, we unpack the motivations for funding the Ethereum Commons, drawing lessons from Linux, and explore various funding mechanisms. Later, we break down the Compensation Insights for Ethereum Core Developers report. We conclude the episode by discussing the next 5 to 10 years of Protocol Guild and upcoming Ethereum upgrades.Timestamps(00:00) - Architecture to Ethereum(03:46) - KZG Summoning ceremony(06:33) - What is Protocol Guild?(11:35) - Why should projects care?(14:04) - Protocol Guild membership(17:57) - The Ethereum Commons(21:25) - Onchain organization(27:56) - Learning from Linux (34:05) - Protocol Guild Pledge(41:07) - In protocol funding mechanisms(46:01) - Protocol Guild FUD(52:23) - Compensation survey(57:23) - Survey feedback(1:02:30) - PG in 5-10 years(1:08:36) - Exciting Ethereum upgrades
DisclaimerNothing in this episode should be interpreted as financial, technical, or legal advice. The host does contract work for Heliax, a public goods laboratory, focusing on Anoma.
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1:13:51
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1:13:51
A rollup that actually scales Ethereum - James Prestwich
In this episode of Deeply Intents, I chat with James Prestwich of Signet, the team behind Signet. This episode is a masterclass on rollups. To begin the episode, James breaks down exactly what a rollup is while taking us through their history that includes Bitcoin, roll_ups, Plasmas, minimum viable merged consensus, and sovereign rollups. Thereafter we unpack Signet, including no proving system as a feature, conditional transactions, instant bridging, and application-controlled execution. We continue by discussing Signet's sequencer design featuring decentralized block building. Later we discuss unexplored rollup designs by reviewing init4's article titled "(Re)Based Rollups" which unpacks possible rollup fork-choice rules. We finish the episode by discussing building products on Ethereum, the philosophy behind building developer tools, and history repeating itself in Bitcoin.Timestamps(00:00) - You can build a rollup in a completely different way(03:14) - What is a rollup?(06:17) - History of rollups(09:57) - Plasmas(14:34) - Minimum viable merged consensus(18:45) - Signet from first principles(21:27) - No proofs(23:01) - Conditional Transactions(27:42) - Instant bridging(31:15) - App-specific Conditional Transactions(31:47) - App Controlled Execution (ACE)(37:45) - Third party native issuance(39:44) - A rollup that actually scales Ethereum(41:16) - Sequencing and block building(45:33) - More Builders than Ethereum(48:08) - Finding the right partners(53:45) - Benefits of an app chain and general purpose chain(56:03) - (Re)Based Rollups(1:00:04) - Unexplored design space for rollups(1:03:41) - Mistakes building products on Ethereum(1:07:39) - Making developer tools(1:11:37) - Bitcoin repeating history
DisclaimerNothing in this episode should be interpreted as financial, technical, or legal advice. The host does contract work for Heliax, a public goods laboratory, focusing on Anoma.
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1:16:06
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1:16:06
Interop Cheat Codes - Peter Watts
In this episode of Deeply Intents, I chat with Peter Watts, founder of Relay Protocol. We begin the episode by discussing Peter's journey from music to Reservoir to Relay. Next, we spend time digging into Relay, its architecture, resource locks, vaults, DEX meta-aggregation, and MEV strategies. We finish out the episode by unpacking B2B distribution, reliability & SLAs, and product market fit.Timestamps(00:00) - From Music to Intents(07:20) - Late follower advantage(10:53) - What is Relay?(16:57) - Layers of Relay's architecture(23:28) - Verification without smart contracts(25:09) - Resource Locks(31:25) - Vaults for solvers(37:10) - Digging into vaults(41:15) - DEX meta-aggregation(48:34) - MEV strategy(53:48) - Landing transactions(55:31) - Chain Abstraction(1:00:14) - B2B distribution(1:03:45) - Reliability and SLAs(1:07:14) - Customer service strategy(1:10:33) - Pre and post PMF(1:16:43) - Ethereum upgrades and standards(1:21:19) - Fast interop layer
DisclaimerNothing in this episode should be interpreted as financial, technical, or legal advice. The host does contract work for Heliax, a public goods laboratory, focusing on Anoma.
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1:23:41
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1:23:41
Philosophy of Elixir - Jeremy Ornelas
In this episode of Deeply Intents, I speak with Jeremy Ornelas of Heliax, the company behind Anoma and Namada. We begin the conversation by discussing the history of Erlang and Elixir, as well as what makes Elixir a good fit for Anoma. Next, we break down the dominion of Anoma, broadly outlining the distributed operating system vision. Thereafter, we discuss Anoma's Controller system in detail, which draws design inspiration from GenServers in Erlang. Later, we discuss the nuances of building hackable systems and shipping viable products. We conclude the conversation by discussing object systems, elegant system design, and the future impact of LLMs on developers.Timestamps(00:00) - Anoma loves Elixir(05:32) - History of Erlang and Elixir(11:29) - Phoenix(14:47) - Make cents for your bottom line(20:00) - Elixir is live and has actors(26:18) - Exploring the dominion of Anoma(32:26) - Controllers and local domains(38:27) - Ubiquitous compute(43:21) - Ethereum speaks Anoma(48:37) - All of this should be hackable(52:48) - Product focused organization(56:49) - What's the holdup on Anoma?(1:01:14) - Products that make sense(1:04:28) - Objects and Anoma Level(1:10:12) - Elegant design(1:14:20) - LLMs and quality
DisclaimerNothing in this episode should be interpreted as financial, technical, or legal advice. The host does contract work for Heliax, a public goods laboratory, focusing on Anoma.
Deeply Intents is a podcast hosted by Apriori. There are two primary motivations; unpack Anoma with relevant guests, and have interesting conversations with values aligned builders. The podcast is long-form content, with an emphasis on the human element.
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