Winning Without Fighting: Economic Power and Information Warfare (Part 2)
Episode 133 is the second installment in our two-part series exploring how the United States can leverage non-kinetic instruments of power to compete effectively without resorting to military force.
Building on our previous discussion, our guests examine America's strategic blind spots in treating economics and information as support tools rather than primary domains of competition. They discuss the integration challenges across U.S. government agencies, highlighting how autocratic adversaries coordinate their instruments of power more effectively while the U.S. struggles with inter-agency dysfunction. The conversation explores the military's evolving role in peacetime competition, with insights from Afghanistan on the challenges of integrating all elements of American power. Our guests introduce the concept of "resilient interdependence" as an organizing principle for the 21st century—unlike Cold War containment, this approach emphasizes strengthening connections with allies while hardening soft targets like supply chains and digital infrastructure. Finally, they identify critically underused economic tools including export credits, development finance, outbound investment controls, and industrial policy that could strengthen America's competitive position against strategic rivals.
Lieutenant General David W. Barno (Ret.) is a Professor of Practice at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. During his thirty-year Army career, he commanded at every level including nineteen months as the senior American commander in Afghanistan, where he was responsible for 20,000 U.S. and coalition forces and implemented a new counterinsurgency strategy. Following his military service, he served as Director of the Near East South Asia Center at National Defense University and held positions at the Center for a New American Security. He is the co-author of "Adaptation Under Fire: How Militaries Change in Wartime."
Dr. Rebecca Patterson is the Associate Director of the Security Studies Program at Georgetown University and Professor of the Practice of International Affairs. A retired U.S. Army officer with over 22 years of experience, she served in Thailand, Korea, Iraq, and Afghanistan. She previously served as Deputy Director in the Office of Peacekeeping Operations, Sanctions, and Counter-terrorism at the State Department. She is the author of "The Challenge of Nation-Building: Implementing Effective Innovation in the U.S. Army from World War II to the Iraq War" and the recently published "Winning Without Fighting."
Don Edwards and Jackie Giunta are the hosts for Episode 133. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.
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Winning Without Fighting: Strategic Culture and Gray Zone Competition (Part 1)
Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict.
Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts.
Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International.
Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare.
Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.
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Winning Without Fighting: Strategic Culture and Gray Zone Competition (Part 1)
Episode 132 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores how strategic culture shapes approaches to irregular warfare and competition in the gray zone. This is part one of a two-part series examining why nations conceptualize irregular warfare differently and how cultural biases affect competition below the threshold of armed conflict.
Our guests discuss why irregular warfare must be central to American grand strategy in an age of crisis and competition. Dr. Susan Bryant shares insights from her book "Winning Without Fighting," examining how American strategic culture - with its preference for binaries, belief that war is aberrant, and faith in technological solutions - creates disadvantages against adversaries operating in the gray zone. Drawing from their extensive operational and academic experience, both guests explore historical examples from Afghanistan, Iraq, and El Salvador to illustrate how cultural biases and quantification obsession undermine irregular warfare efforts.
Dr. Susan Bryant is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and Johns Hopkins University. A retired Army Colonel with 28 years of service, she is co-author of "Winning Without Fighting" and currently serves as Executive Director of Strategic Education International.
Dr. Thomas X. Hammes is a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Institute for National Strategic Studies at National Defense University. A retired Marine Corps Colonel with 30 years of service, he is the author of "The Sling and the Stone" and has extensive operational experience in insurgency and irregular warfare.
Don Edwards and Julia McClenon are the hosts for Episode 125. Please reach out to them with any questions about this episode or the Irregular Warfare Podcast.
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Security Hybridization: U.S., China, and the Future of Global Security Assistance
Episode 131 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast explores the growing phenomenon of "security hybridization," where countries receive simultaneous security assistance from both the United States and the People’s Republic of China. While the U.S. tends to emphasize regional defense, interoperability, and support for the global commons, China focuses on internal security, law enforcement training, and regime protection.
Our guests examine how this dual-track approach is reshaping global security partnerships—and what it means for the future of great power competition. Professor Sheena Chestnut Greitens offers insights from her recently publish article, Security without Exclusivity: Hybrid Alignment under U.S.-China Competition, while Jon Finer draws on his experience as former Deputy National Security Advisor to assess the implications for U.S. policy and strategy.
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Operation Spider’s Web and the Future of Asymmetric Warfare
Episode 130 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast takes listeners inside Operation Spider’s Web—Ukraine’s bold campaign of long-range drone strikes targeting Russian military and industrial infrastructure.
Our guests begin by examining why Ukrainian defense planners opted for this unprecedented strike operation and how it was designed to disrupt Russian strategic depth. They then unpack the technical, operational, and strategic considerations that enabled the operation, including the role of commercial drones, asymmetric targeting, and irregular doctrine. The episode concludes with reflections on how Spider’s Web is reshaping our understanding of deep operations and irregular warfare in the 21st century.
Brigadier General Kip Kahler is the former Senior Defense Official and Defense Attaché to Ukraine, with over two decades of national service in strategic roles across the interagency and foreign militaries.
COL Brian Petit is a retired SF Army officer who teaches and consults on strategy, planning, special operations, and resistance. He is an adjunct for the Joint Special Operations University.
Kateryna Bondar is a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and a former advisor to the Ukrainian government, where she led reforms in defense and innovation. Her article, entitled How Ukraine’s Operation “Spider’s Web” Redefines Asymmetric Warfare, serves as the anchor for episode 130.
The Irregular Warfare Podcast explores an important component of war throughout history. Small wars, drone strikes, special operations forces, counterterrorism, proxies—this podcast covers the full range of topics related to irregular war and features in-depth conversations with guests from the military, academia, and the policy community. The podcast is a collaboration between the Modern War Institute at West Point and Princeton University’s Empirical Studies of Conflict Project.
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