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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

Podcast The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
Podcast The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast


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  • S4 E62: The Uniting Power of Story | Angus Fletcher | Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
    This episode was recorded on September 7, 2021. Angus Fletcher and I discuss creativity, the link between literature and resilience, what makes for compelling narratives, the different kinds of stories, and much more. Angus Fletcher is a Professor of Story Science at Ohio State's Project Narrative, the world's leading academic think-tank for narrative theory. He is also the author of Wonderworks: The 25 Most Important Inventions in the History of Literature. Find more Angus Fletcher on his website: [00:00] Intro [01:21] What is Project Narrative? [02:27] "Stories are the most powerful things ever invented. They're the most powerful tool we possess" Angus Fletcher [03:04] "When you realize stories have the power to change how our mind works, to troubleshoot it, to make it more resilient, more creative, more scientific—to do all these things... When you couple the power of stories with the human brain, you throw open the doors to anything" AF [03:53] The problem with literary studies. How stories empower us and improve performance [07:06] Wonderworks and the story of courage in Homer's Iliad [12:40] "Literature and scripture are synonyms. They mean 'that which is written.' So [something] more fundamental than any technology... Is simply that sense of spiritual experience" AF [13:18] The Neuropsychology of Anxiety by J. Grey [14:44] What are the 2 kinds of stories? [19:12] Story thinking [19:22] "Human cognition is largely narrative. We process the world narratively" AF [22:12] "The wonder of being on this earth... is to build stories and [empower people] to tell their own" AF "And to unite us in a collective story so we can work towards the same ends" JP [23:00] Why are certain stories so compelling? [24:48] The zone of proximal development [25:44] "Being enthralled is a manifestation of the instinct that specifies the zone of proximal development" JP [31:24] The ideal spirit transcending the individual; Jung's Pleroma [32:14] "The flip side of anxiety is creativity—they're both about restless energy" AF [33:31] What's the source of dreams? [33:55] "We have this vast knowledge in embodied action." A great storyteller takes "images that reflect a compelling pattern of behavior [and verbalizes them]” JP [34:56] Abstract representation of patterns as a dream-source [38:43] Computational power, stories, and the differences between the abstract and particular [38:48] "Much of what drives the demand for higher computational resources is... producing artificial realities for fantasy simulation" JP  [45:51] Christianity and Star Wars [46:35] "Star Wars is Christianity for atheist nerds" JP [46:56] "We are most happy when we don't perceive ourselves as inheriting an archetypal story" AF [48:16] "We see in stories, and this is partly why our eyes are adapted... so that people can see [the white in] our eyes. It's really important because [our eyes point at] what they're interested in. We can see what they value [and] infer their motivation" JP [50:36] Literature and psychedelic experiences [51:27] "In psychotherapy... you're trying to hammer the person's narrative into a single... functional unit" JP [55:31] Trauma, unconscious mapping, and dream analysis [56:56] "Any territory you cannot perceive through the overlaid projection of a narrative map is traumatizing" JP  [59:59] Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Erich Neumann [01:02:51] Jung vs Darwin on stories [01:10:18] "Literature can build emotional and intellectual resilience" AF [01:14:55] Being adaptive is “to be emotionally and intellectually resilient" AF [01:15:54] Creative training; measuring creativity #Creativity #Stories #Jung #Literature #Darwin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E61: Meaning, Awe and Conceptualization of God - pt. 3
    This episode is comprised of multiple Season 4 episodes from the podcast, specifically, Jonathan Pageau, James Orr & Nigel Biggar, Ian McGilchrist, Lawrence Krauss, Christopher Kaczor and Matthew Petrusek and Bishop Barron. We have paired this compilation with the release of the full video series on YouTube in one video. This episode is brought to you by Jordan's personality course available at The Personality Course is available for the week of Black Friday for 53% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E60: The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau | JBP Podcast
    This episode was recorded on September 10th 2021. Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau have a round table to explore ideas and theories of Meaning. All three guests have been on the podcast before, and all share Jordan’s passion for the universal truths of human experience. This deep discussion explores the roots of Meaning and religious significance. Bishop Barron is the founder of Word on Fire and the auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of LA. John Vervaeke is a colleague of Jordan’s and an associate professor at the University of Toronto since 1994. He teaches courses on reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes. Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons. - Find more Bishop Barron on YouTube: And here: Find more John Vervaeke online on his website: John's YouTube channel: Find more Jonathan Pageau on YouTube:  Jonathan's website: _________ [00:00] Preview [01:30] Intro [02:40] Everyone gives their answer to “What is meaning?” [03:30] “We're using meaning as a metaphor... something similar to the way a sentence works. It has intelligibility to it that connects us to the world... so that we can interact and be informed by it” Jon Vervaeke [07:22] “Our mental framing is transparent like a pair of glasses, but there are times we need to step back and, by taking the glasses off and examining them, consider our framing structure" JV [09:10] “When you look at the world there is a central point of focus. When you focus on the point with your eyes it becomes very clear... until we no longer perceive anything by the edge of our vision. It's nothingness, it's just not there" Jordan Peterson [13:56] Bishop Barron's view on meaning and religion [14:23] “I would say that meaning is to be in a purposeful relationship to a value" Bishop Robert Barron [17:55] “So I'm talking to you, which I believe is a good, but it's nested in a higher good and a still higher good, so finally I want not just this particular good but good itself—that's a religious relationship" BRB [18:20] Pageau’s opening thoughts on meaning and religion [19:56] “The reason we perceive hierarchy is because we are always judging... or trying to evaluate whether something’s good" Pageau [20:31] Jordan’s brief foray into “mini-celebrations” [21:53] The idea of revelation [24:46] “It isn't obvious to me that we see objects—we see patterns" JP [27:40] “Like a Rolling Stone—it wasn't the first song I liked, but it was the first that rocked my world and rearranged my mind, and I think that's where real value is" BRB [28:42] Underlying causes of the crisis of meaning [30:10] “Something that starts with Scotus... and goes into the heart of the scientific revolution is that there’s no such thing as levels—reality just is" JV [31:00] Science around the hierarchy of intelligibility and connectedness [33:00] What is science? [39:00] “There’s an epistemic hierarchy and science does not belong on the top" BRB [42:00] “As scientists, we are motivated by a narrative we don't understand scientifically… The whole enterprise is driven by a dream whose reality can't be encapsulated within the process itself" JP [44:00] The ignorance in assuming science OR religion are correct [44:40] Eminationist ontologies [55:30] Religious experiences [01:07:30] The book of Revelations as a psychedelic experience. [01:17:30] The Psychedelic problem and why psychedelics are useful in communal experiences. [01:26:00] Jordan’s biblical lectures [01:32:00] What are the guests working on? [01:36:00] Beauty in churches [01:38:00] Growing up Christian [01:44:00] Possibility is real [01:50:00] Joining religion and science [02:03:30] Wrapping up #Meaning #Psychology #Religion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E59: Meaning, Awe and Conceptualization of God - pt. 2
    This episode is comprised of multiple Season 4 episodes from the podcast, specifically, Jonathan Pageau, Randall Wallace, Iain McGilchrist, Bishop Barron, Stephen Fry, and John Vervaeke. We have paired this compilation with some exciting upcoming episodes in the form of next Monday’s podcast which is a conversation between Jordan, Jonathan Pageau, Bishop Barron, and John Vervaeke where they discuss many of the same concepts you will hear about today - as well as the role of the psychedelics in religious tradition.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E58: The Immaculate Conception: Bitcoin vs Fiat Standard | Dr. Saifedean Ammous
    This episode was recorded on September 8th 2021. Saifedean Ammous is an expert on Bitcoin with a PhD from Columbia University. He joins Dr. Peterson to discuss decentralization, different schools of economics, the Fiat vs. Bitcoin standards, and much more. Dr. Ammous is the author of The Bitcoin Standard, widely considered the essential book on the economics of Bitcoin. He also hosts a podcast of the same name. His new book, The Fiat Standard, should be out in November. _ Find Saifedean here: Saifedean’s online learning platform: (20% off by using the code “Peterson”) The Bitcoin Standard: The Fiat Standard: _________ [00:18] Intro [02:34] What are hard monetary assets? [06:13] The argument for bitcoin being the best hard money ever created [09:11] "Bitcoin only has users... no admins. There is nobody with a master key" - Saifedean Ammous [10:36] How the Bitcoin network functions using "consensus parameters" [15:49] "The way that Bitcoin came about seems... virtually impossible to believe" - Jordan Peterson [18:27] Other schools of economics (Austrian) vs. the most common today (Keynesian) [20:46] "So the Austrian school of economics... tilts you more towards an appreciation of non-centrally controlled, distributed networks, and emphasis on the individual actor" - JP [23:25] Paul Samuelson and communist economic expectations of centralized planning post-WW2 [25:27] Dr. Ammous' academic background [27:14] Climate change. The push towards central planning, implying certain people or groups know the exact consequences and solutions to future economic developments [29:41] "I've been struck by the problem of unintended consequences and the irreducible complexity of things. We can talk about the problem of climate change, but those words are incredibly deceiving" - JP [34:16] Highlighting the crucial role of the entrepreneur in Austrian economics [40:46] Saifedean reflects on the views held by the central bank, governments, and mainstream economists on money—as opposed to Bitcoin's structuring and the Austrian school of thought [41:43] "From the Austrian perspective, money is a product of the market and not the invention of the state. The state's meddling in money... is irrational and cannot succeed for the same reasons central planning does not succeed" - SA [45:50] Overview of Dr. Ammous' book The Fiat Standard [54:40] Current inflation in Western democracies. The devastating effect of hyperinflation on the average person [58:15] "Money is an incredible technology for lowering our time preference" - SA [58:59] "The 20th century was a global trainwreck of watching the money preference rise. Generation after generation... witnessed their money devalue" - SA [01:02:32] Why some efforts in energy production are misguided [01:06:39] The Fiat Standard [01:10:29] Why are we allowing people to mine bitcoin? [01:12:46] The genius that went into the production of the Bitcoin code [01:23:14] The crazy reality of decision-making at climate change panels [01:26:36] Fiat-based currency jobs and the Zoom warriors disconnected from the physical world [01:31:09] "A lot of the problems of the 20th century, in my opinion, have their roots in highly inflationary fiat currency" - SA [01:31:18] Covering some of the common objections against Bitcoin [01:39:45] "We are always going to find more reasons to print money" - SA [01:41:43] Ammous’ online learning platform [01:48:29] The growth of and the parameters attributed to its success [01:50:05] The possibility of decentralizing societal accreditation [01:50:21] "I've talked to seriously wise academics who know that there is almost zero financial knowledge in universities [today]... There is tremendous residual value, however, in the accreditation" - JP [01:56:18] Wrapping up #Crypto #FiatStandard #Bitcoin #JordanPeterson #Decentralization Learn more about your ad choices. Visit

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